Talk:Limburgish

Edits by ‎93.221.40.167

I would like to quote this IP

Article Essen: (closely related to Dutch). removed. This isn't even wrong.

Talk:Lower Rhine region:

Once in the article:

"Bergish .. is the easternmost dialect of Limburgish"

• Jan Goossens, Die Gliederung des Südniederfränkischen, in: Rheinische Vierteljahrsblätter. Jahrgang 30  1965, Ludwig Röhrscheid Verlag, Bonn, 1965, p. 79-94, esp. p. 79:

• ‚Südniederfränkisch‘ nennt man [..] die Mundarten, die in einem Raum gesprochen werden, der sich beiderseits der Grenze zwischen dem Verbreitungsgebiet der deutschen und der niederländischen Kultursprache über drei Staaten, Deutschland, die Niederlande und Belgien, in einem Dreieck Tienen-Remscheid-Eupen erstreckt. Als Seiten des Dreiecks kann man die ik/ich-Linie (Tienen-Remscheid), die maken/machen-Linie (Remscheid-Eupen) und die romanische Sprachgrenze (Eupen-Tienen) betrachten. [...] Der niederländisch-flämische Teil dieses Gebietes ist unter dem Namen ‚Limburgisch‘ bekannt [...].

• That is: South Low Franconian lies between Ürdingen and Benrath line (has ich and maken). Limburgish is the Netherlandic-Flemish part of it.

• Bergish is variously defined, see
  Peter Wiesinger, Strukturgeographische und strukturhistorische Untersuchungen zur Stellung der bergischen Mundarten zwischen Ripuarisch, Niederfränkisch und Westfälisch, in: Peter Wiesinger, edited by Franz Patocka, Strukturelle historische Dialektologie des Deutschen: Strukturhistorische und strukturgeographische Studien zur Vokalentwicklung deutscher Dialekte, Georg Olms Verlag, Hildesheim / Zürich / New York, 2017, p. 341–437

• p. 349f.: "1967 Erich MENGEL [...] 1. Südbergische Mundarten (südlich der Benrather Linie)"

• I.e. Mengel's Bergish includes some Ripuarian, which is not South Low Franconian.

• p. 422 (map): Elberfeld and Barmen lie north of the Ürdingen line (have ik).

• p. 437 (map): Elberfeld and Barmen lie in the area of "Randbergisch" which is part of "Bergisch".

• Hence some of Wiesinger's Bergish lies north of the Ürdingen line and isn't South Low Franconian (south of the Ürdingen line).

article Low Franconian

Georg Wenker used the term Niederfränkisch (Low Franconian) more in the sense of Ripuarisch. Cp.:

• Georg Wenker, Das rheinische Platt. – Den Lehrern des Rheinlandes gewidmet, 2nd ed., im Selbstverlage des Verfassers, Düsseldorf, 1877

• • p. 13: "Davon abgesehen aber ist Köln der eigentliche Mittelpunkt einer großen, die ganze Mitte der Rheinprovinz einnehmenden Mundart. Diese hat man die niederfränkische genannt, und unter dem Namen wollen wir sie uns denn auch merken. Nach Norden ist die Benrather Linie ihre Grenze, [...]"

• • p. 14: "Wir haben nun noch zu sehen, wie das Niederfränkische, also die Mundart um Köln herum, sich nach Süden hin begrenzt. [...] Welches sind nun die beiden Mundarten, die sich hier vermengen? Die nördliche ist die niederfränfische um Köln, wie wir schon wissen, die südliche aber ist der Moseldialect auf dem linken Rheinufer zu beiden Seiten der Mosel und der Westerwälder Dialect auf der rechten Rheinseite im Westerwald. Diese beiden, der Moseldialect und der Westerwälder Dialect, sind fast ganz gleich und man nennt sie auch zusammen das Mittelfränkische (und zwar die nördlichste Mundart des Mittelfränkischen, denn [...]).

• Jürgen Lang, Sprache im Raum: Zu den theoretischen Grundlagen der Mundartforschung. Unter Berücksichtigung des Rätoromanischen und Leonesischen, series: Beihefte zur Zeitschrift für romanische Philologie. Band 185, Max Niemeyer Verlag, Tübingen, p. 195

</ref> Most dialects and languages included within this category are spoken in the Netherlands, northern Belgium (Flanders), in the Nord department of France, in western Germany (Lower Rhine), as well as in Suriname, South Africa and Namibia.

and

North and South Low Franconian, classified like this:. Compare also:

• LVR-Institut für Landeskunde und Regionalgeschichte (ed.). "Dialekte im Rheinland". Retrieved 21 July 2023.

Article Limburgish:

Gossens (1965) distinguished the following sub-dialects:

• ostlimburgisch-ribuarisches Übergangsgebiet (East Limburgish - Ripuarian transitional area; Ürdingen, Düsseldorf, Solingen, Remscheid, Mönchen-Gladbach, Eupen)

• Ostlimburgisch (East Limburgish; Panningen, Krefeld, Dülken, Sittard)

• Zentrallimburgisch (Central Limburgish; Maastricht, Vroenhoven)

• westlimburgisch-zentrallimburgisches Übergangsgebiet (West Limburgish - Central Limburgish transitional area; around and southern of Genk)

• • Tongerländisch (Tongeren)

• • Bilzerländisch (Genk, Bilzen)

• Westlimburgisch (West Limburgish; Veldeke, Hasselt, St.-Truiden, Loon)

• südbrabantisch-westlimburgisches Übergangsbiet (South Brabantian - West Limburgish transitional area)

• • Ostgeteländisch (Beringen)

• • Westgeteländisch (Tienen)

From talk:Dutch dialects

South Low Franconian

Just a heads-up for watchers of this page: I've created the article South Low Franconian which covers the West Germanic dialect group spoken (or in some areas, once spoken) in three countries. I've strictly focussed on its linguistic features as presented in sources from Belgian, Dutch and German scholars and left ample room for debated views (which btw do not depend on the nationality of the author, as this article (Limburgish) incorrectly states in multiple places).

Since the scope of this article largely overlaps with the Belgian and Dutch area of South Low Franconian, there are quite a few redundacies in the new article, many of which can be resolved if material pertaining to SLF varieties in Germany is trimmed or removed here (most of which is unsourced anyway). Other details are maybe best discussed here as is (like aspects that mostly relevant to the situation in Belgium and the Netherlands, especially the language-political dimension), while others (e.g. linguistic features common to the entire area, or at least are distributed over the Limburgs and German Rhineland) are better covered there. Austronesier (talk) 18:20, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for creating South Low Franconian, I think it will prove to be most helpful in the future clean up of this article. Vlaemink (talk) 12:22, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Concerning the rewriting of the orthography section; / Spelling 2003 for the Limburgish dialects

Two days ago, I removed much of the orthography section from this article [1] and used what was there to create a new article Spelling 2003 for the Limburgish dialects. This is standard Wikipedia practice for cleaning up overly long and confusing (and/or self contradictory) articles, such as this one.

The dialects referred to as Limburgish in this article have no standardized orthography and multiple authors stress this. In fact, even the dialect association Veldeke Limburg, which created the 2003 spelling which was present in this article, explicitly states this. The new orthography section explains this clearly and refers to the previously present orthography in both the text and a see further-template beneath the heading. While no information was removed, what was removed were the various links to the website www.limburgsedialecten.nl, not just because this is a unreliable and unscientific source, but also because the website in question is no longer online. The same goes for the website www.limburgsespelling.nl.

So to respond to a recent revert of this edit, in which it was falsely and suggestively claimed that the previous "section" (two sentences, red.) was "dramatically rewritten" and that "well sourced" material was removed; [2]: neither is the case. No substantial information was removed and the previous iteration of the orthography section was not well sourced but is now.

This article is a mess and has been across at least three major Wikipedias since its creation. I am very grateful to @Austronesier for recently creating the South Low Franconian article, which hopefully can turn this article in less of a chimæra in the future. As for @De Wikischim, a user who has been blocked more than 45 times on the Dutch Wikipedia, is subjected to several arbcom restrictions on his edits and who has displayed a severe lack of NPOV concerning this subject as well as personal animosity, if not vendetta-like behavior on the Dutch Wikipedia towards those who challenge his personal POV; I'd like to make the following abundantly clear: this is the English-language Wikipedia, where WP:SOURCE is held in high regard and articles are not easily hijacked from further editing by poisoning the talk page or engaging in edit wars. You are hereby asked to take this into serious account and remain from any further nonconstructive if not obstructive editing. Vlaemink (talk) 10:57, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

@De Wikischim: There is no need to have the same information about something in full in two places. That's what hatnotes to related articles are for. If a main article exists for the subtopic, a short summary is sufficient.

That said, @Vlaemink: is it really necessary to split out a section into an undersourced article (as of now, it has been tagged as such) when this main article is far from hitting the suggested maximal length of 100k? We have dozens of articles that contain sections about "non-official and non-standardized advisory spelling[s]". SIL has devised hundreds of practical orthographies that rarely become official due to repressive or non-affirmative minority language-policies in most countries on this planet. And when these spellings are in practical use, there is no harm to present them. When they are not fully accepted by the speaker community, we can say exactly that. As long as size issues do not arise, information about the spelling of a linguistic variety (regardless of its status as "language", "regional language" or "dialect") is best kept in the main article as an essential piece of information. And obivously, mentioning the Veldeke-spelling in this article is not WP:UNDUE, especially when you believe it is notable enough to get a standalone article. Austronesier (talk) 11:06, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

@Austronesier: The article has been tagged as undersourced, because relies on a single source (as btw, did the material when it was still part of this article). Practically speaking, this is not a huge problem though as the article is basically a technical one describing a spelling system and the single source is the actual publication of this spelling system, i.e. there's not a lot that can go wrong in that respect. Nevertheless I'm in full agreement that more independent sources should be added to this article, for example focusing on the spellings actual usage, and I intend to do so in the near future.

As for the reasons for excising it from this article. First and foremost, it's because the emphases in the literature concerning orthography is that none of these varieties are standardized, which makes it odd to have an orthography section of which 95+ % concerns a strictly codified orthography. This unnecessarily distracts from the practical reality, which is that the spelling involved has no official status and is hardly used by any of the speakers of these dialects. However I do not at all oppose mentioning the Veldeke-spelling in this article, which is why I explicitly mention both the dialect association and the spelling it developed in the rewrite of the section ([3]), however I do not think the entire orthographic system should be placed in this article; but should instead have its own article, as many other spelling systems and spelling reforms do.

Placing the edit in a broader picture: this article is in dire need of being more concise, less self contradictory and far better sourced, if not being sourced at all. Its biggest problem has always been that it has consistently failed to meet the most basic of article conditions: to clearly define what it's about. As a consequence the article has been been growing and growing, aimlessly and mostly unsourced, for over a decade. In order to fix that, the article needs to get back to the basics and needs to be 'pruned'. Not necessarily in the gardening sense of the word, where material is removed, but at the very least by restructuring this article. Keeping the orthography section "general", while providing links to variously more detailed/specialized articles forms a logical part of that. Vlaemink (talk) 12:08, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

I just explained here in the edit summary my reasons for undoing Vlaemink's rewritten version of the section "Orthograhpy".

@Austronesier: Actually this already has a long history, which indeed once began on the Dutch Wikipedia. Every few years, the vision "Linguistically seen, Limburgish is merely a subset of Dutch dialects" is introduced again (at least, attempts to do so are made). However, among the greater part of linguists/dialectologists, this vision has since long been abandoned. This happened first especially on the article nl:Limburgs and more recently here too, especially since last year.

De Wikischim (talk) 16:38, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

(Striking out moot comment after the removal of parts of the preceding comment) Please refrain from bringing off-enWP drama here. We simply don't care about it here. Stick to the topic and tTell us why you want to have these tables in two places instead of one. I have explained why I think it better placed here, but anything is better than what you are currently producing. –Austronesier (talk) 16:45, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

For me, this mainly concerns the text above the tables, not especially the tables themselves. The old text (which I just restored again) was both well-sourced and more in line with the rest of the article compared to Vl.'s new version of the section. So I think at least that part of the old section should be kept. The tables below the text (from "Alphabet") are again another separate issue. De Wikischim (talk) 16:55, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Apart from the issues I already mentioned above, the older version I just restored contains some essential information parts (such as the use of the spelling on websites and in dictionaries) which were absent in the re-written version which only mentioned the use of the spelling on place name signs. For the rest, Vlaemink's new version focused almost exclusively on the non-official status of the Veldeke spelling, thus creating disbalance. De Wikischim (talk) 09:15, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

You're close to or already at 3RR now. Just stop. Both. –Austronesier (talk) 09:30, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

At this point, we approach the farcical, below is previous text to be found under the orthography section:

Limburgish has many varieties hence there isn't a standard written form. However the Limburgish Language Council Veldeke Limburg has adopted a standard orthography for Limburgish since 2003, representing all the sounds that occur within the Limburgish dialects in writing. Although this spelling also does not have official status, it is used within this dialect association as well as for the spelling of bilingual place name signs and it is used in its websites as well as dictionaries. This is the form presented below.

And this is the revised / current one:

There is no standardized form of the Limburgian dialects, nor is there an official standard spelling for the individual Limburgian dialects. The dialect association Veldeke Limburg developed an advisory spelling in 2003, aimed at uniformly representing all the sounds that occur within the Limburgish dialects in writing. Although this spelling also does not have official status, it is used within this dialect association as well as for the spelling of bilingual place name signs.

To claim, that you are opposed to the revised version because of substantive differences between this version and the previous iteration is beyond ridiculous. Vlaemink (talk) 09:57, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

See above, where I already explained more or less in detail the flagrant differences between the two versions, as an objection to replacing the old version fully with your new one (even though some of its elements could maybe be integrated).

And again, I urge you to finally stop your constant ridiculing/defamation of my edits here and elsewhere - this is really beginning to get annoying, and looks a lot like disruptive behaviour from your side. De Wikischim (talk) 10:06, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

What about this:

There is no standardized form of Limburgish, nor is there an official standard spelling for the individual Limburgish dialects. The dialect association Veldeke Limburg developed an advisory spelling in 2003 that is endorsed by the Limburgish Language Council and aims at uniformly representing all the sounds that occur within the Limburgish dialects in writing. Although this spelling also does not have official status, it is used within this dialect association as well as for the spelling of bilingual place name signs.

1. "The Limburgish Language Council Veldeke Limburg" is wrong; these are two different entities. The orthography was devised by Veldeke Limburg, and is endorsed by the Raod veur't Limburgs. 2. The first sentence talks about the non-existence of a standard form, so it's a statement about Limburgish in toto. 3. We should use "Limburgish dialects" for consistency; "Limburgian dialects" is prefectly good and in fact better English, but the title of this article is Limburgish, and "Limburgish" has become the common name for it in English, even though it sill sounds very much like Dunglish.

FWIW, the pettiness of this discussion ("flagrant differences", seriously?) in the face of massive issues of the article in many other places gives the impression of turning this article into WP:BATTLEGROUND. –Austronesier (talk) 10:31, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. Though this seems slightly better, the use of the spelling in dictionaries and on the association's own websites is still left out, while these are important elements in the context. De Wikischim (talk) 10:40, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

We can have use of the spelling in dictionaries too, with an independent secondary source. Use in the association's own websites looks like a trivial corollary. You would only mention it when you're desperate to show that it is used at all. But things look fair better for the Spelling 2003, don't they. –Austronesier (talk) 10:54, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

In my rewrite I left out the previously mentioned dictionaries because this was "sourced" 1) by an unreliable website, and 2) because this website didn't speak of an actual published dictionary, but rather spoke about a "dictionary app" which was "to be developed". Of course mentioning of certain dictionaries using this spelling can be added, provided the sourcing is valid and reliable — which is not the case at present.

On a different note, I think it's utterly ridiculous that "my" version was claimed by De Wikischim to contain "flagrant differences" with the old version and is subjected to ridiculous edit warring, whereas Austronesiers version (which only differs from mine in mentioning the Raad voor het Limburgs) is suddenly very much acceptable. That's beyond childish, and, frankly, shameful. It's nothing more than WP:POINT and WP:BATTLEGROUND and you should immediately stop with such completely nonsensical behavior.Vlaemink (talk) 11:22, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

No, not "very much acceptable", but just "slightly better". I'm still heart-broken over that verdict. ;) –Austronesier (talk) 11:40, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Touché ;), but you know what I meant. Suddenly, it's "slightly better" and open to discussion, whereas the previous "flagrantly different" version, was subjected to an edit war. Why the previous edit war? Why not simply add the language counsil and look for a source on a dictionary. That's what I find ridiculous. Vlaemink (talk) 11:51, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

[...] whereas Austronesiers version (which only differs from mine in mentioning the Raad voor het Limburgs) › incorrect, there are more differences (for example the use of "Limburgish" in the first sentence vs. "Limburgian dialects" in the previous alternate version, which is a significant difference). Again, a distorted view of the actual situation. De Wikischim (talk) 12:04, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Please, do explain why using "Limburgish dialects" instead of "Limburgish" is a "significant" difference. Vlaemink (talk) 12:40, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

I see no need at all to explain things which are already as clear as daylight to everyone (or, at least, should be so). De Wikischim (talk) 12:48, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

I have to insist. Why is it of such paramount importance to you, that "Limburgish" is used instead of "Limburgish dialects", where is the "significance" in this? Vlaemink (talk) 12:59, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

See what I already wrote somewhere above: [...] "Linguistically seen, Limburgish is merely a subset of Dutch dialects" [...] However, among the greater part of linguists/dialectologists, this vision has since long been abandoned..

Put somewhat differently: it's the basic difference in the linguistic senses of the two terms "dialect" vs. "language" here. At this place, it is better to avoid the somewhat confusing/misleading and/or ambiguous term "dialects" (the term can still be used elsewhere in this article wherever needed/appropriate), since the proposed Veldeke spelling was aimed at providing a uniform writing standard for the mutually diverse dialects which altogether make up "Limburgish" as a recognized language. De Wikischim (talk) 13:19, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Talking about "Limburgish dialects" does not imply denial of Limburgish as being anything but "a subset of Dutch dialects". That'a fallacy. Obviously, Limburgish is not a uniform variety, but comprises multiple dialects (like every language in the world with more than 1000 speakers and spoken in more than 3 villages). It's not healty to get triggered over the word "dialect" for no reason at all (unless somebody wants to write "Limburgish is a dialect of Dutch" – but nobody does; it's a strawman). It is more a matter of accuracy to talk about a "standardized form of Limburgish" instead of "standardized form of Limburgish dialects". –Austronesier (talk) 13:30, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @De Wikischim:: I don't follow, at all.

My text didn't mention ″Dutch dialects″ anywhere, it mentioned ″Limburgish dialects″. So I'll again ask: what's the significant difference you claim there is between ″Limburgish″ and ″Limburgish dialects″, because I, for the life of me, cannot see any problem with this. Nor does dialect association Veldeke by the way, as they explicitly named their spelling the ″2003 spelling for the Limburgish dialects″. It's as clear as the sky, you say, well then, please do explain.

You know what, I'll answer it for you and in doing so, we'll touch the actual issue at play here, which is not my ″significantly different″ wording but your NPOV and unfamiliarity with linguistic terminology: You want to portray Limburgish as a (that is, in your eyes) ″true language″. Your ideal image is for Wikipedia to state that ″Limburgish″ is just another Germanic language, just like Icelandic, Frisian or English are, preferably without any mention of the relation these dialects share with Dutch (or German) as a whole. You don't like the word ″dialect″ because you yourself think of a ″dialect″, ″variety″ or ″dialect group″ to be of a lower class than a ″language″.

A linguist, or an objective editor for that matter, most of the time couldn't care less about the difference between a ″language″ or a ″dialect″. Linguists care about describing and analysing what they see and that's inevitably going to bring them (or rather their publications) into conflict with your NPOV. Because Dutch is undeniably the Dachsprache of the Limburgish dialects. Because Limburgish dialects are seen as a part of the Dutch dialect landscape both historically and contemporarily by an overwhelming majority of authors. Because Limburgish dialects do not fulfill all aspects of the ″typical″ standardized European national language. And so on, and so on. And no, this doesn't in any way, shape or form delegate Limburgish dialects to any inferior status or detract from the various typological or sociolinguistical qualities or political status (some of) these dialects have, it's merely one aspect of this dialect grouping.

You are (and always have been) principally focused on giving Limburgish status — and attacking all those who, in your eyes, seek to diminish that supposed status. For example by using the perfectly normal word ″dialect″ instead of ″language″ or the mere mentioning of ″Dutch″. You need to stop that, because it's not only incredibly unscientific, it's harmful to this article. Vlaemink (talk) 14:19, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Because Limburgish dialects are seen as a part of the Dutch dialect landscape › Maybe this was still by and large the situation about a century ago, when dialectology was hardly seriously practiced yet. It's simply the dominant consent among most linguists nowadays that Limburgish, given all its characteristics, is a regional language on its own, just with the same (that is, Low Franconian) historical linguistic base as most of the dialects/varieties spoken in the area where standard Dutch is the Dachsprache. That was, as well, the main reason for the recognition as such in the Dutch province of Limburg in 1997. So again, this has nothing to do at all with "your [=my] NPOV".

Anyway, all this has already been explained before very thoroughly, especially (again) last year on the Dutch Wikipedia, with relevant sources being given as well - something you should still know very well. In the archives of nl:Overleg:Limburgs, similar discussions about the linguistic status as Limburgish/its relation to the Dutch language/Dachsprache go back as far as mid 2007(!), see the first archive. De Wikischim (talk) 14:52, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, this is your typical tactic: ″it's all as clear as the sky″, ″it's all been explained before″, ″it's so obvious it doesn't require any explanation″, ″this is the dominant consensus view″ ... that's not going to work. It doesn't work on the Dutch Wikipedia, and it's certainly not going to work here.

You claim its common knowledge? Prove it. Plain and simple: cite your sources. Provide a source, which states what you claim. Vlaemink (talk) 15:10, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

OK, just one which could be found with a first simple search through Google Books: [4] (Developmental, Modal, and Pathological Variation-Linguistic and Cognitive Profiles for Speakers of Linguistically Proximal Languages and Varieties).

Anyway, I'm citing this now especially for those who read along; I know you will reject this source immmediately as unusable (since it isn't well compatible with the vision "Limburgish dialects = variants of the Dutch language"). De Wikischim (talk) 15:30, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

When I asked you the above question; I already had a pretty good idea of what was going to happen next: there would be a link to a Google search (✔), probably accompanied by a remark stating how easy it was to find (✔), but without actually citing the source (✔), possibly with an additional remark stating something like ″this confirms everything I said, but my opponent will nevertheless reject it″ (✔).

This is your standard MO when it comes to trying to convince others of your NPOV; and while you endlessly repeat this tactic, seemingly convinced that it will indeed work out at one point, is never does or ever will because it's not based in objectivity and people are not stupid.

Take @Austronesier: for example, who's shown some considerable aptitude for cutting through bullshit, be it Wiki-Drama or content-related.

Do you honestly think, that he's going to be convinced by this? That he's somehow not going to notice that you just typed "Limburgish + Language + recognition" into the search bar (I mean, it's actually visible in the top of the screen!) and literally copied the first result that came up? Do you honestly believe that he's not going to look into the actual source, read it, and then come to the inevitable conclusion that this is no way supports your claim? Do you think he's going to be reassured by the idea that you've now outed yourself as an editor who goes out searching for literature to support of his view, rather than searching for literature in order to form a view?! It's borderline insulting that you seem to think you can get away with this and it's almost frightening that you don't seem to have any qualms with attempting it.

You cannot bluff or debate your way out of providing valid and reliable sources: you're dealing with serious people, so either (considerably) up your game, or leave the table. Vlaemink (talk) 16:53, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

@Austronesier: The link to Google Books I gave above automatically leads you to a few text fragments on the pages 37, 39 and 44. There you can see illuminating examples of how "Limburgish" is used in practise by linguists to denote it as a minority language. Of course there's way more to find - but I don't have time the whole day just for this either to keep on searching. Anyway I hope this helps you at least somehow. De Wikischim (talk) 17:54, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Segway into sociolinguistics and linguistic barriers

(after a edit conflict; seeing that you were specifically replying to my comment, and for the sake of readability, I created a subsection containing your comment on sociolinguistics and linguistic barriers Austronesier, I hope you do not mind. Vlaemink (talk) 17:26, 14 October 2024 (UTC))

A linguist, or an objective editor for that matter, most of the time couldn't care less about the difference between a ″language″ or a ″dialect″. That's not entirely correct. Linguistic barriers are man-made and the study of them is part of sociolinguistics; they can emerge organically in a slow historical process, but also as a result of deliberate efforts to bolster a national or regional identity. Luxembourgish has emerged from a Moselle Franconian dialect of German and still can be classified as part of the Moselle Franconian dialect group; sociolinguistically, it is undeniably a language of its own, having all properties of an Ausbausprache. In the case of Limburgish, the object of this deliberate effort have been the basilectal varieties of Dutch Limburg. Sure, Dutch remains for the most part Dachsprache of the Limburgish dialects, but that doesn't mean that speakers of Limburgish in the Netherlands have no right to consider their cluster of Low Franconian varieties as a regional language in its own right, even when it is lacking some characteristics of a full Ausbausprache—most minority languages in the world also do. Advocates of Limburgish are wise enough not waste time on standardization (except for orthography), because their main objective is the preservation of traditional local speech varieties and to create a "safe space" for them within the linguistic diversity in the Netherlands, well aware of the fact that in public laypeople's awareness, dialects continue to be perceived as lesser realizations of the common Dutch languages (or in the worst case, "wrong" Dutch).

But even for advocates of Limburgish linguistic identity, nothing has changed about their place in the continental West Germanic dialect continuum: obviously, they blend slowly into Brabantian in the southwest and into Ripuarian in the east (but more markedly into Brabantian and Kleverlandish in the northwest and north); but obviously also, most Limburgish varieties are hardly intelligible for speakers of standard Dutch, so at the extremes, Dutch-Limburgish Abstand is not much smaller than for Limburgish-German. It is a matter of perspective, and when you open your eyes, you will find plenty good sources that state "Limburgish is a regional language of the Netherlands" and further take no concern whatsoever in the status of Limburgish, because their actual topic is syntax, phonology, linguistic vitality or whatever. Yes, linguists most of the time couldn't care less about the difference between a ″language″ or a ″dialect″; which is exactly why they have come to respect the self-perception of speech communities. –Austronesier (talk) 16:35, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

The statement is of course correct, as it 1) has the ″most of the time″-modifier, and, 2) you literally repeat and confirm what I've said at the end of your comment! ;)

On a more serious note, what you write is of course (mostly ;) true, but I would ask you not to misconstrue or misrepresent my argument, i.e. falling in De Wikischims trap: I am not advocating the position that speakers of Limburgish dialects have no right to call their dialects a (regional) language — and never have.

I'm merely pointing out, that views are not monolithic and differ. For example, while some speakers of Limburgish dialects might consider their language wholly separate from Dutch, others (for example, the Dutch general public, or linguists, or even other Limburgers) might not do so — and that these views should also be represented.

I would love for this article to explain in which respects and to what extent Limburgish constitutes an Ausbausprache. I would love for this article to have a section on the sociological perception of the Limburgish dialects both historically and geographically. I would love for this article to have a section in which its distance to Standard Dutch is explained, while also explaining that within a dialectal framework they are part of a continuum.

In other words, I am one for the big picture, not for a narrow view which excluded various political, cultural or linguistic realities based on a personal preference. I hope we're agreed on that. Vlaemink (talk) 17:23, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

I maninly have referred to the Dachsprache-gambit and the statement "Limburgish dialects do not fulfill all aspects of the ″typical″ standardized European national language" (which I would have phrased "Limburgish does not fulfill..."). So? Does it matter for Kashubian, Sorbian or the multiple Saami varieties? You have said in the section below that we should focus on what Limburgish is (in all its position definitions) instead of what it's not... So we have a direction that we head for now, innit? –Austronesier (talk) 18:08, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

@Austronesier: Preferably, we focus both on that the Limburgish dialects are as well as what they are not. Phrases such as "the ″typical″ standardized European national language" are to be avoided in my opinion, as are comparisons to Sorbian and Saami, which are clearly in a different linguistic position.Vlaemink (talk) 18:23, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

@Austronesier: Thanks, this seems to me a rather good summary of the main stuff this is all about actually. And it's exactly the reason why I already suggested earlier (for example, a few years ago or so in one of the "parallel" discussions on the Dutch WP) to use neither language for Limburgish in the intro (like in the current version of the article here) nor dialect[s]/dialect group, but to call it [a group of] Low Franconian varieties. This "compromise", however, has not been generally accepted either, at least not on Wikipedia-NL. I still think it would have solved at least some part of the still ongoing problems with this. De Wikischim (talk) 17:31, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

"A group of Low Franconian varieties" is fine as long as it becomes clear that the boundaries of that group are partially or entirely set by territorial borders, and not (or partially not) on intra-linguistic arguments. "A group of Low Franconian varieties spoken in Belgium and the Netherlands" appears to be the best solution, as long as it is immediately followed by "...and a recognized minority language in the Dutch provice of Limburg", or similar to that. –Austronesier (talk) 18:03, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

I think I can agree with it that way, including the last part. So as for my part, you can re-write the intro accordingly, and let's hope this will at least solve something. De Wikischim (talk) 18:12, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

For the sake of accuracy, De Wikischims then proposed wording was: ″Limburgish, together with Dutch and Afrikaans, among others, forms the contemporary Low Franconian language variety″ — which was, unsurprisingly, rejected.

As for a workable definition; ″a group of Low Franconian varieties spoken in Belgium and the Netherlands″ is a good starting position, but it needs fine-tuning.

For example, Bakker (1997) excludes the South Low Franconian dialects in Germany from ″Limburgish″ due to a lack of dialect identity; which means the sociological dimension matters. He also comes to the conclusion that one of the defining characteristics of "Limburgish" is its extremely limited contribution to the Dutch standard language and subsequent relative distance from it. Furthermore, the recognized minority language-status is a tricky one, as this has been legally defined as applying to all the dialects of the province of Dutch Limburg; regardless of linguistic classification. Vlaemink (talk) 18:17, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Can you please move on and kindly strike out the first paragraph? There is this thing on ANI when two editors bring a content dispute there and then A explains why B is a jerk, and B explain why A is jerk, but 90% of readers only think "what they each say about the other actually says more about themselves..." .

It's not just Bakker who excludes the South Low Franconian dialects in Germany from "Limburgish". Virtually nobody includes them. Goossens suggested his terminological revision for no other reason than to avoid clumsiness (Ostsüdniederfränkisch etc.), but it never caught up (after all German dialectologists have never had a problem with things like "ostwestfälisch"). The recognized minority language-status for "non-Limburgish" dialects in Limburg is a bit tricky, but this is easily resolved by spelling it out. I've done that in South Low Franconian. It becomes tricky in the further discussion when talking e.g. about structural features of Limburgish but that is again easily resolved by only using examples from varieties that are considered Limburgish by both extant definitions (Roermomds, Hasselts etc., but not Venrays or Budels; I'll make an exception for Venlos as the classificatory value of the Uerdingen line is contested among dialectologists—and because Bakker (Frens, not Pierre) is an awsome linguist). –Austronesier (talk) 18:46, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Taking this into account; maybe something like ...

″The Limburgish dialects are a group of South Low Franconian varieties spoken in Belgium and the Netherlands¹, characterized by their relative distance to Standard Dutch². In the Dutch province of Limburg, all dialects have been given regional language status, including those comprising ″Limburgish″ as used in this article.³″

Or something similar. This way, the German varieties are excluded without ignoring their typological similarity by mentioning Low South Franconian as a whole; thus placing Limburgish within a wider frame (¹). The sociolinguistic dimension is touched upon by both alluding to the distance to Standard Dutch (which, by explicitly using "standard", still leaves the door open to the Low Franconian/Dutch dialect continuum) (²) and the regional language status without misconstruing the poltical/legal complexities there (³). Vlaemink (talk) 18:54, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Clean up of unsourced material (november)

Over the years as well as more recently, various templates and cite-tags have been added to this article, requesting reliable and valid sources for many of its claims. While WP:SOURCE very clearly states that any material that requires but lacks citations may be removed immediately, I'd like to ask any followers of this page to add sources to what is questioned/unsourced within a period of three weeks. Instead of removing the disputed material outright, I think it's more practical to allow for a grace period instead of repeatingly having to go to the page history to re-add material if sources can be found. Following this period, I will remove the sections for which no sources were provided. Vlaemink (talk) 12:21, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

This article has been flooded by edits that range from blunt language advocacy to an atomistic focus on taxomony. Limburgian linguists have produced fantastic research in last 30 years or so (not to forget older works by Goossens), but little of it is echoed in this article (except for the phonological parts by User:Sol505000, one of the few quality editors ever having touched this page lately). It's a pity for such a beautiful topic. –Austronesier (talk) 16:16, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Indeed, and this is exactly why this article needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. Instead of long defunct partisan and/or websites and unsourced OR, it needs proper linguistic literature. Instead of being an eclectic, hardly readable (let alone understandable) mess, it needs to follow a common thread/framework and needs to clearly define its subject. And thirdly, it needs non-activist editors who understand the topic, or, at the very least, understand that using terms like "varieties", "dialects", "dialect group" instead of using "language" doesn't equate to making a value judgment.Vlaemink (talk) 10:20, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

The quality of Wikipedia does not hinge on a single article. We shouldn't "incubate" problematic material into a standalone article. Two problematic articles are worse than one problematic aritcle. This is why have turned "Spelling 2003 for the Limburgish dialects" into a redirect. I am also worried about WP:GNG when it's just a subtopic of the history of how to put Limburgish varieties into writing. The correct procedure would be first to improve the subtopic "Orthography" in this article along the lines of Assendelft (2019) and potentially split it out if size issues arise. Only then we can think about a Spelling 2003-article as a sub-sub-topic.

As for the rest, we should definitely proceed as you suggest: tag, grace period, remove. Also, everything about wider the South Low Franconian context can be trimmed to a summary paragraph, since there's a dedicated article for the dialect group (please but don't "incubate" stuff there!). At the same time, we should decide how to deal with non-Limburgish dialects in Dutch Limburg and especially Belgian Limburg. According to Dutch streektaal policies, Venrays and Meijels are "Limburgish"; but what about Dommels then? By applying the Dutch logic to Belgium, it would be Limburgish too (and it in fact is in the sense as it is part of the linguistic diversity of Limburg), but for dialectologists, hardly so. And then there's the opposite case of Budels. Spoken outside of Limburg, it is sociolinguistically not Limburgish just as Krieewelsch isn't, but in Dutch dialectology, it is included in the Limburgish gamut (but Krieweelsch etc. not). –Austronesier (talk) 12:06, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Regarding [...] how to deal with non-Limburgish dialects in Dutch Limburg, see d:Q9303961 in case you need some inspiration. A separate article on this would likely have added value here too.

By the way (it may perhaps be a little surprising...?), I agree as well that a separate article on the "non-official" Veldeke spelling as such can(/should) exist as such. Anyway, it needs to be sourced better indeed than the current version. De Wikischim (talk) 12:18, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

I think most dialectologist nowadays would disagree with labelling the dialects of Northern Limburg as "Brabant-Limburg transition dialects". That term is mostly reserved for the area around the Geteline, while for the northern dialects that do not belong to Limburgs in the linguistic sense, scholars like Giesbers, Svanenberg and Bakker (and also the Raod veur't Limburgs) prefer "Kleverlands" as these dialects display little of the typical features of the Brabantian group. But this is just a minor question. It's more about the rest. –Austronesier (talk) 12:33, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

@Austronesier: I undid you edit which redirected the Spelling 2003 for the Limburgian dialects-article to this one [5]. To turn the article into a redirect barely two days after its been created for relying on a single source (btw, the same single it relied upon while previously part this article) is somewhat unreasonable in my eyes and if you, like you said, are in favor of a grace period for deleting unsourced material here, then surely you would apply that same mindset to the spelling article — which has since been expanded.

As for the rest of your comment, I think this is skipping an important step: before defining which dialects are not Limburgish, we will first need to define what is, and on what basis/by which definition. This includes elaborating on the regional language status, which applies only to Dutch Limburg and to the entirety of its territory; regardless of what may linguistically may be considered "Limburgish". Vlaemink (talk) 13:18, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

There is a difference between a grace period for new junk and old junk. WP is inert and that's good thing. ONUS, BRD, y'know. But I have given up on this... –Austronesier (talk) 13:32, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

I think it's highly exaggerated to consider big parts of this article as unreliable, and use this as a reason to cut them from the article. First, the article already cites ten apparently reliable sources now (see Limburgish#Sources). Apart from that, you can simply put at least some trust in the editors who worked on this article in the recent years (and longer ago). Indeed there are some question tags, but at least one of them seems very superfuous (In Belgium, the Limburgish dialects are more endangered than in the Netherlands › this is a generally well-known fact, about which nobody who is at least somewhat familiar with the linguistic situation in the Dutch and Belgian provinces of Limburg would have any doubt). De Wikischim (talk) 13:53, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

No, there have been some really, really bad additions to the aricle in the past years, and it needs to be handled with a WP:TNT-approach, if necessary. If something is "a generally well-known fact", then it won't be hard to find a reliable source for it. WP:V is unnegotiable. For "In Belgium, the Limburgish dialects are more endangered than in the Netherlands", I can immediately think of at least three out of hand from my own knowledge of the relevant literature. –Austronesier (talk) 14:01, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

[...] Hoewel ook in België muziekgroepen in dialect zingen, is de dialectrevival hier veel zwakker dan in Nederland: doordat de standaardtaal in België minder lang en minder algemeen verbreid is dan in Nederland, wordt er meer op de dialecten neergekeken. Ook de politieke en financiële steun voor streektalen en dialecten is in België minder groot dan in Nederland., [6]. (Do I need to translate this into English, or do you understand it enough this way?). Just one example of a quote which 100% endorses the relevant text part in this article. De Wikischim (talk) 14:10, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Stop the bickering: WP:SOFIXIT. And I fucking do speak Dutch. –Austronesier (talk) 14:25, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

While I agree with you, please watch your language. Vlaemink (talk) 14:52, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Which one of the three languages that I use on a daily basis? –Austronesier (talk) 15:06, 14 October 2024 (UTC)