Talk:National Emblem of China

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On 30 October 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved from National Emblem of the People's Republic of China to National Emblem of China. The result of the discussion was moved.

Discussion

Does the cog wheel represent the industrial workers? (I was told that they were represented by one of the four minor stars.) Could this instead represent the modern industrial development of China?

Leonard G. 17:34, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Due to several cases of vandalism, I have semiprotected this page. Feel free to contact me if you disagree. Count de Chagny 03:03, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 14 February 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. There's opposition from a pure vote count, and while there are valid arguments made on both sides at best it combines with the overall tally for "no consensus" (though it does lean towards oppose). Either way, the page isn't being moved. Primefac (talk) 18:18, 22 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

National Emblem of the People's Republic of China → National emblem of China – The main article and common name is China. The consensus and precedent at recent move discussions has strongly favoured moves from PRC to the common name of China. See for comparison Flag of China. Capitalisation change per MOS:HEADCAPS. AusLondonder (talk) 03:06, 14 February 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 23:22, 6 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Rename per WP:COMMONNAME and per China. On subordinate articles the title should match the country article, which is the place to settle the China vs PRC issue. Timrollpickering 00:33, 17 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per WP:PRECISE, WP:NEUTRAL, WP:NATURALDIS and WP:SYSTEMICBIAS. The national emblem is specific to the PRC government. There a dearth of editors from East/South East Asia due to which this problem occurs on the English Wikipedia. Although the PRC is often referred to simply as China, they are not the same (and you can see this distinction in the Chinese Wikipedia and all other Wikipedia as well). China is a region which is considered politically divided between the 2 political entities of ROC and PRC. (Thus PRC=/=China and ROC=/=China). This National Emblem belongs solely to the PRC. In cases of disputes, our job as an encyclopaedia is to provide knowledge and clarify the situation. In this case, it helps to be WP:PRECISE so as to maintain neutrality.

More important, I have also noticed that emblem is generally referred to as the "National Emblem of the People's Republic of China" in many authoritative sources.

Government of the PRC [1],[2], [3]
Government of Hong Kong [4], [5]
China Daily [6], [7]
Global Times [8]
BBC [9]

Using the actual title, also provided a natural disambiguation (SeeWP:NATURALDIS). Note that the National emblem of China has historically been largely used for the imperial emblem and the Nationalist government emblem, and a google ngram search for "national emblem of china" shows more results historically than today. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 16:57, 18 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom, User:Timrollpickering and WP:PRECISION. The current title is overly precise. It's been nearly 70 years since the Chinese Civil War settled the issues that User:Lemongirl942 raises. The hatnote at the top of the page will direct those still in the dark to the Blue Sky with a White Sun if that's what they seek. — AjaxSmack 19:26, 19 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral, but please stay consistent throughout all articles. This discussion is always brought up in articles concerning this topic and the results vary, depending on the arguers available that day. Even people opting for the same solution have completely opposing motives. A party wins because no one seems to care about a discussion that turns inactive after a while, secretly consolidating their view on the page. People throw arguments against each other, but they don't really answer each other. People throw guidelines against each other to support their views. Does this lead to anything someday? To the person above me: You are just interpreting the history as you like, introducing misleading claims as well. The Civil War, provided you think it has ended, left a big chunk of territory unrecognized by Western powers well into the 1970s. It couldn't settle something that wasn't there previously, it started the dispute. --178.10.55.209 (talk) 20:41, 19 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support, per WP:COMMONNAME. I believe that WP:PRECISION was also taken into consideration in the discussion when moving Flag of China. Fizikanauk (talk) 19:23, 20 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

How exactly was WP:PRECISION taken into consideration? More importantly, a google ngram show that the vast majority of the results are about the emblem prior to 1949 - that is long before this current emblem was even used. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 17:58, 21 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support following the recent move of the main article to China. MilborneOne (talk) 18:02, 21 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
As the current article scope stands, I'd recommend keeping the current title. wikidata:Wikidata:Project chat and WP:RFD have recently dealt with many problems that arose because of mismatches between different editions of Wikipedia as a result of ill-thought "PRC" → "China" page moves. We need not compound the problems caused by ill-conceived precedents. Deryck C. 18:48, 21 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- On a related note, the merger discussion at Talk:Flag of the Republic of China may affect this move proposal. Deryck C. 19:43, 21 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose per WP:NPOV and Lemongirl's excellent explanation. By making this move, we would be commenting on the political situation there. This is the emblem of the PRC, and since there are two China's this is necessary. TonyBallioni (talk) 02:55, 22 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Actually the Taiwanese emblem is already covered at Blue Sky with a White Sun. AusLondonder (talk) 09:17, 22 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The Blue Sky with a White Sun is not really a "Taiwanese" emblem. It is a Chinese emblem (and has been used as such even among overseas Chinese such as in Singapore). --Lemongirl942 (talk) 01:09, 23 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Strong oppose per WP:NPOV and Lemongirl.Homunq (࿓) 14:17, 23 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Consistency with "China" is not the sole reason. "China" discusses the background and history of the mainland China, governed by POC. "Taiwan" discusses the island, currently governed by ROC. This article discusses an emblem of the legally recognized sovereign state. BTW, National Emblem of China should be a dabpage. --George Ho (talk) 05:40, 24 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Correct. If I go by The "National emblem of China", it can refer to any of the 3 emblems per the google ngram. As none of them are the primary topic (and most results actually are about the historical emblem), I would support a dabpage. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 07:06, 3 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support per the main article on the sovereign state being at China. There is no systematic bias in applying WP:COMMONNAME, merely an WP:IDONTLIKEIT attitude from some editors who disagree with the current location of the China and Taiwan articles. Number 5 7 09:30, 2 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support, it's a fact now: China = People's Republic of China, not Taiwan or Chinese Taipei. We have already China & Flag of China— Gaurh (talk) 03:38, 3 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support per WP:COMMONNAME. I understand the desire to be specific, but sometimes that desire goes too far for this work. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼ 23:24, 3 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose WP:POV and WP:RECENTISM the common name of the PRC emblem is not "national emblem of China", it's very explicitly called the "National Emblem of the People's Republic of China" in parlance for a reason.--Prisencolin (talk) 06:27, 4 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
oppose The name should be specific. India only has one emblem so we have one page. But China had a civil war and many countries still recognise the Nationalist government and their symbol which has a longer history. It is helpful for readers to specifically know which side's symbol is this. Otherwise wiki is siding with the one china policy. This is unhelpful and I expect wiki to be neutral.Kiwigravity (talk) 13:32, 4 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per WP:PRECISE. This is not the national emblem of China; it is the emblem chosen by the CPC. What about historical dynasties and the nationalist government? Laurdecl ^talk 04:13, 5 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support The target is currently unoccupied. "Blue Sky with a White Sun" is also a Chinese emblem (and not Taiwanese, a fact some editors here don't seem to fully understand) but that can be taken care of by the hatnote (which is already present in the article anyway). Timmyshin (talk) 22:02, 7 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

What about the Twelve Symbols national emblem though? That was also a national emblem. As we 3 emblems here, I would suggest National Emblem of China be a dabpage. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 09:54, 9 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Due to historical signifiance of the term PRC. L3X1 Distant Write 14:04, 8 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

OpposeThis request will be meaningless if the page does not include all the Chinese emblem that has been used.--Tr56tr (talk) 16:38, 14 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I changed my mind. I did a GBook search of "National emblem of China" and discovered the phrase is also used for non-political emblems like Chinese dragon, Black Tortoise etc. Timmyshin (talk) 21:18, 16 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 12 June 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) —Guan aco 00:32, 21 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

National Emblem of the People's Republic of China → National Emblem of China – Because the National Emblem of Taiwan contained emblems of various governing authorities that ruled Taiwan, why not rename the article and add historical emblems of China in the mainland Supreme Dragon (talk) 23:55, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

Support. I don't know what changed since the last request four months ago but it's still a good idea. — AjaxSmack 13:42, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support This should not be as contentious as it seems to be. China is China. Taiwan is Taiwan. The common name here and elsewhere is China. Also consistent with similar articles such as Flag of China. AusLondonder (talk) 22:38, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose – "China is China. Taiwan is Taiwan", except that this is not and has never been the case. There is no National Emblem of Taiwan, because no such "Taiwan" exists or claims to exist. Instead, the government of the Republic of China, which presently controls a reduced territory, centred on the island of Taiwan, uses the Blue Sky with a White Sun, as it has done since 1928. Of course, this emblem was on the flag of all of China, then, and millions of Chinese fought under that flag in the Sino-Japanese War. The emblem was designed by Lu Haodong, someone with no connection to Taiwan...but, yet, somehow, the editors above want to argue that this emblem is not an emblem of China, but of a 'Taiwan'. How is this even possible? The reason that this article is at the present title is so that it can be recognised that China has been governed by many states over the course of history...the PRC merely one of them. If you move this article to 'National Emblem of China', the scope of the article will inevitably broaden away from the PRC emblem, forcing the inclusion of the RoC emblem, Qing emblems, etc. This is obviously not desirable. This article is about the PRC emblem, not any of the other Chinese national emblems, and therefore, per WP:PRECISE the article should stay put, lest we commit an epistemic violence in reducing the Blue Sky with a White Sun to the emblem of some theoretical "Taiwan". RGloucester — ☎ 06:55, 14 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support per WP:COMMONNAME. I will not oppose listing ROC or Qing emblems in the article National Emblem of China. Most national emblem articles also include their historical emblems. But in the same time, Blue Sky with a White Sun should also exist as a separate article, it is a political totem used by more than one entities like Double-headed eagle and Hammer and sickle. It was the national emblem of China and is the current emblem of Kuomintang and Taiwan. Fizikanauk (talk) 00:47, 20 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Same as before. We can't rename it to "National Emblem of China" just to be consistent with "China". The legally recognized government chose its own emblem, yet many people recognize PRC as "China". However, the topic describes a subtopic involving the present-day China. Also, there are other kinds of emblems that existed in China, like (previously mentioned in RM) Chinese dragon and Black Tortoise. Type in 'emblem China', and you'll see "Emblem of Hong Kong" and "Emblem of Macau" included in the results. (BTW, there are cross-wiki results when you click the link.) --George Ho (talk) 02:08, 20 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Requested move 10 April 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page as proposed at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 17:17, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

National Emblem of the People's Republic of China → Emblem of China – Since the PRC is recognized as "China", maybe its time to rename it as such so it can include historical emblems of China. 135.23.145.14 (talk) 00:24, 10 April 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. Dekimasuよ! 18:38, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support per WP:COMMONNAME. This move would bring this page in line with the other pages in Category:National emblems. –IagoQnsi (talk) 01:20, 10 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support per China. Subordinate articles should match the country article's usage and the latter is the place to discuss the PRC issue. Timrollpickering 12:46, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Relisting comment. I am relisting this discussion in light of the extent of the previous discussions. Further, I wonder whether the proposed title should be Emblems of China, plural, given the regional/local content included in the second half of the article. Dekimasuよ! 18:38, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Leave alone no indication that this is the common name at all, just short hand In ictu oculi (talk) 19:37, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. No evidence that this is the primary meaning of the proposed title. Srnec (talk) 23:09, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral - "China" vs "People's Republic of China" is not the same as "Emblem of China" vs "Emblem of the People's Republic of China". Nevertheless, I'm torn. Indeed, the state of the article is a mess. The article focuses primarily on the PRC emblem, but then the "Historical emblems" sections exist. Previously, I opposed the proposal because I thought consistency is an inadequate reason. However, re-reading the article and then the arguments change my stance. --George Ho (talk) 23:14, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 30 October 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Cremastra (u — c) 01:14, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

National Emblem of the People's Republic of China → National Emblem of China – Per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:PRIMARYTOPIC; China is overwhelmingly used to refer to the PRC. Nearly everyone searching for the national emblem of China is searching for the emblem of the PRC. The Account 2 (talk) 21:32, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support, repeating my previous comments, per China. Subordinate articles should match the country article's usage and the latter is the place to discuss the PRC issue. Timrollpickering (talk) 10:54, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.