Talk:Greece–Turkey relations

To-do list Part 2

@Biz: Here's the leftover parts.

Small uncited parts

*Positive relations: end of Paragraph 1 starting at "whose replacement was with a cheer squad" Response: citation added and adjectives downplayed Biz (talk) 04:26, 9 June 2022 (UTC) *Energy pipelines: end of Paragraph 1 starting at "Turkey would work from 2018" Response: I added some citations and edited the text. Biz (talk) 04:26, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Some more uncited parts at "In 1999, violent earthquakes" at Positive relations and "This instability over the status" at Energy pipelines. MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 18:12, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Apologies, missed this. Earthquake relations section now improved; energy pipeline was reworded in a different edit and on longer an issue. Biz (talk) 23:42, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Sources

*Per above in To-do list Part 1, there is a [better source needed] tag with the Kathimerini source in the Migrants section. If you believe only this source needs to be replaced here, then it should be swapped out. This statement I created, like with others on the article, to aggregate several news items that were on the page before. I have removed the [better source needed] tag because I did a look on JSTOR for sources and could not find better. Biz (talk) 04:26, 9 June 2022 (UTC) --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 20:22, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

Neutrality

• I suggest that this article is read from all sections (Lead to Timeline) before renomination and fixed for neturality issues. Non-netural wording include "More significantly, Greece lifted its opposition" and "Yet despite the change in relations" in Positive relations that need fixing per MOS:EDITORIAL. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 18:17, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

  Per MOS:EDITORIAL, the following words were checked and rewritten if they appeared in a sentence:

  • notably, it should be noted, arguably, interestingly, essentially, utterly, actually, clearly, absolutely, of course, without a doubt, indeed, happily, sadly, tragically, aptly, fortunately, unfortunately, untimely
  • but, despite, however, though, although, furthermore, while

  I agree someone should read this entire article from start to finish. Every time I look at it I find something new but given how much of this article has now been rewritten by me, it would be good to get fresh eyes. Personally, I feel the above is over 95% of any neutrality issue -- I made a big effort to balance all perspectives, so this colourful language stands out (and has now been corrected) but is not reflective of the overall neutrality.

  Biz (talk) 03:31, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

  I've done a complete read of the article and made changes. As no one else is contributing, want to call this work done. Ready for renomination. @GhostRiver can you re-grade the page now? @MrLinkinPark333 are you ok if I renominate? Biz (talk) 05:35, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

  I suggest citing the two leftover parts I mentioned in Small uncited parts first so they are already covered. I'm glad you went through the article and made additional neutrality fixes :) . MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 23:04, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

  Done. Next? :-) Biz (talk) 23:43, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

  I think you're all set to go. Nice work! MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 00:10, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Abdullah Ocalan’s picture

Is it necessary to keep Abdullah Ocalan’s picture on the “Positive relations” section? I suggest removing his picture. He is the head of an illegal and banned terrorist organization after all. It does not add any value to the section but seems like a mockery of the issue. 176.55.17.225 (talk) 10:31, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Yes, we can remove it. Can you suggest several images instead to take its place? Biz (talk) 17:58, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

How about pictures to do with the 1999 Izmit and Athens earthquakes? It is a good example of humanitarian cooperation. 46.31.112.214 (talk) 12:32, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

I like the direction But I would like to see a picture that can add more meaning to the article. As this is an article about Greece-Turkey relations, a picture of Israel helping Greece and that also appears on the twice-linked earthquake diplomacy page is not as useful as others. I picked the Ocalan picture because (a) it was a major event that affected relations (b) there's a lot more to learn about the issue for the reader if they are interested why it matters . A generic picture of rubble that could look like any earthquake does not add anything to the readers knowledge. Biz (talk) 20:58, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Good call. Agreed. 46.31.112.214 (talk) 11:24, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

Ruins of the İzmit and Athens earthquakes.

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This review is transcluded from Talk:Greece–Turkey relations/GA3. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: AirshipJungleman29 (talk · contribs) 01:15, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

I will take this review. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 01:15, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Fantastic! It has already gone through one extensive review with @MrLinkinPark333. He declined to approve it further because he did not want to go through all the sources. (Which admittedly, are quite a lot -- I had to split the page because the content is so overwhelming.) I will say I not only went through nearly every source earlier this year, but I added a lot of new ones so feel confident that 98% are in good shape. Elias (talk) 02:28, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

A good start would be fixing the CS1 and CS1 maintenance errors. These are on citations 8, 28, 124, 151, 166, 170, 219, 225, 228, and 231, in addition to the first and fourth books in the further reading section. When this is done, I will review the sources via a spot-check of randomly chosen citations.

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it well written?

   A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:

   There are numerous missed punctuation marks (full stops are particularly prominent), while the prose is exceedingly informal and essay-like.

   B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:

   Specifically, it does not comply with the guidelines of lead sections and words to watch.

2. Is it verifiable with no original research?

   A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:

   B. All in-line citations are from reliable sources, including those for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines:

   C. It contains no original research:

   D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:

   B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):

4. Is it neutral?

   It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:

   See previous Good Article review for details.

5. Is it stable?

   It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:

6. Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?

   A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content:

   B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

   I cannot say that the issues raised at the previous nomination have been adequately considered. When the previous reviewer brought up the question of neutrality, especially in the contemporary history section, the nominator explained that the section was based on a writing project, but thought the problem fixed after correcting three (3!) sentences. The entire section needs a complete rewrite, especially as it often misses basic punctuation such as full stops or apostrophes, or basic grammar. There are in addition multiple occasions where sentences are overly cited, large numbers of WP:WTW, and issues with WP:NPOV and WP:IMPARTIAL. I cannot do anything but quick-fail this article, on the basis that it fails criteria 3 and 5 of the Good Article quickfail criteria. I would suggest a visit to the Guild of Copy Editors, if you find yourself unable to improve the article satisfactorily.~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:24, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"People moving across the border of both nations are a common sight and frequent cause of incidents"

I would suggest a different wording than of current version[1]. The people moving across are not the cause of incidents. Cinadon36 13:54, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. That is an example of me trying to consolidate multiple news reports on the page into one sentence. Ideally, a secondary source is used. As for how this is written, what do you suggest? Biz (talk) 17:45, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

I am not sure, I cant tell. It is not easy. Cinadon36 04:49, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Heavy reliance on primary sources and newspaper articles.

There is a heavy reliance on primary sources in current version. [2]. Greek Ministry of FA and Turkish consulate general, are primary sources. Also, despite significant literature at peer reviewed journals, many newspaper articles are in use. Cinadon36 13:58, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

That's correct. Prior to this year, the article was mostly a list of news items. When I rewrote the article this year, I preserved all content as best I could and would remove news articles if I found better sources only (or if they were just inappropriate).

I used the Greek Ministry and Turkish ministry to confirm what they call issues in their relations, which is relevant given this is a page of government relations. It helps more with narrative than evidence. For the consulates, I also used goverment website which I believe is most appropriate. Biz (talk) 17:44, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

My advice would be to drop all primary sources. You might use few of them just as an adjunct to secondary sources. It is crucial not to rely on primary sources, especially on this kind of subjects. They are full of fallacious reasoning and serving propaganda purposes. Cinadon36 04:48, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

I get that, but when these two competing countries say the same thing about issues, there's truth there. When it comes to consulates, there is nothing dangerous about referring to a government website? I appreciate you are advocating for what is a standard Wikipedia position but inn this use case I do not think it applies. Biz (talk) 22:01, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

There is no issue with primary sources so long as they are verifiable. BackwardsJetwash (talk) 09:54, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Secondary sources put things into context. Anyways the policy of wp is clear Wikipedia:PST.Cinadon36 11:03, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Secondary sources certainly put things into context. This is what the article does. But to identify what topics to research to justify adding secondary sources in the first place, something is needed to set the agenda.

As this is an article about the government relations between two countries, the authority on what are issues, government positions, and what are current consulates are Greece and Turkey's government publications.

Regarding Wikipedia:PST, "A primary source may be used on Wikipedia only to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge."

• the consulates can be validated to their websites, which are the primary sources in question. Given consulates can change with short notice, only governments have the most correct facts and can be validated
• The issues can be validated from the governments. Yes, there is misinformation there (ie, Turkey claims Greeks never had a presence in Cyprus) but this is simply to set the narrative of the article and secondary sources are used in the body of the article to expand on the issues. To put this is a different context, it would be bizarre if a secondary source was used to set the narrative of the article instead and the government websites made no mention of the issue. Or if an issue was mentioned in a government website, but not in a secondary source, the source would not be as credible.
• I am by no means saying we should not add secondary sources for the above. I'm simply saying the above are adequate and merit inclusion.

I agree otherwise there should be no other use of government websites on this website unless it is calling out a government's position. (This occurs twice: one section which says "the legality of which is challenged by Turkey" which uses the Turkish government page and another "Lesser incidents often occur where both sides still exchange fire" which links to a Greek government announcement along with other sources)

If you or anyone disagrees and think this is not appropriate, then we can add this as needing a revision. Biz (talk) Biz (talk) 03:53, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

To do list

The following are a list of issues that have been identified that need to be corrected as discussed on User_talk:AirshipJungleman29

The article consistently presents opinions from sources as fact. The article does not follow the recommendations outlined at WP:NPOV, specifically WP:IMPARTIAL. Examples

• "There was a lot of progress but ultimately not on the issues that mattered."
• "Greece's fear, often explicitly communicated by Turkey's politicians in the media, is that Turkey wants to renegotiate borders otherwise determined by international law." This one is sourced entirely by too many communications by Turkey's politicians, when in reality the source should talk about Greece's fear. Total WP:OR.
• "In both cases, and in the words of former Greek prime minister George Papandreou, the respective nations would benefit if they treated the minorities as citizens not foreigners."
• " Greece's hesitance could be solved if the Mufti's were stripped of authority of jurisdiction. Turkey's precondition to open the Halki Seminary is considered unnecessary: it's purely a political decision."

The lead is a problem * The first paragraph should "clearly explain the subject so that the reader is prepared for the greater level of detail that follows. "Greece and Turkey have a competitive relationship with a long history and complex issues", reads like the opening sentence of a history writing project * The sentence "Greece and Turkey since their formation have used real and imagined trauma of each other to justify their nationalism" introduces three topics (their formation, real and imagined trauma, and nationalism) which are never talked about elswhere in the lead. This is a contravention of MOS:INTRO — there should be no hinting at concepts discussed later in the article. The lead should also cover the article's most important points, yet there is no summarisation of the Background and History sections except for the two words "long history". This is not sufficient.

Words to watch

• Refer to MOS:EDITORIAL and MOS:REALTIME.
• Spelling and grammar issues

Biz (talk) 21:32, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

A new revision exists to resolve the two issues identified in the lead. Biz (talk) 05:04, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi @Future_Perfect_at_Sunrise, I understand why you reverted that edit of the first sentence I did to comply with @AirshipJungleman29's call out of MOS:INTRO.

That said, I'm not sure how to do this. Can you or someone recommend how we talk about the content in Background and History in the intro? Biz (talk) 15:32, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

The sentence "Greece and Turkey since their formation have used real and imagined trauma of each other to justify their nationalism" introduces three topics (their formation, real and imagined trauma, and nationalism) which are never talked about elswhere in the lead.

• This has now been addressed by discussing the formation of both countries in the first paragraph and the listing of major events that constitute trauma and nationalism such as the Population exchange between Greece and Turkey, the Varlık Vergisi, the Istanbul pogrom and Cypriot intercommunal violence.

There should be no hinting at concepts discussed later in the article.

• Summary style of the major points is employed, there is no hinting that remains.

The lead should also cover the article's most important points

• I believe the lead achieves this. In discusses the before mention 'trauma' and nationalism; it lists the issues that form the basis of their disputes such as the UNCLOS treaty, decolonisation of Cyprus, and the addition of the Dodecanese to Greece's territory; it also includes territory disputes over the sea and air, minority rights, and Turkey's relationship with the European Union and Cyprus; Control over energy pipelines.

There is no summarisation of the Background and History sections except for the two words "long history". This is not sufficient.

• Background has now been added as a sub-heading under history
• The reference to the Ottoman Empire and Greece as a separate Wikipedia page, which previously was on this page, I believe covers off on the "long history" point. The history since Turkey's formation, which is what this page is now about, are referenced otherwise with all the major points mentioned earlier.

@User_talk:AirshipJungleman29 can you please confirm if my edits now address these specific points you made? Biz (talk) 04:18, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

The first paragraph should "clearly explain the subject so that the reader is prepared for the greater level of detail that follows. "Greece and Turkey have a competitive relationship with a long history and complex issues", reads like the opening sentence of a history writing project

This has now been removed. It was an attempt at summarizing but understand how this appears to be editorialising. Biz (talk) 04:46, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

The article consistently presents opinions from sources as fact. The following sentences were identified as issues

• "There was a lot of progress but ultimately not on the issues that mattered." this has now been rewritten to show it's an opinion from a credible source. According to Dr R. Craig Nation in a report commissioned by a US military think tank, there was a lot of progress but ultimately not on the issues that mattered.
• ""Greece's fear, often explicitly communicated by Turkey's politicians in the media, is that Turkey wants to renegotiate borders otherwise determined by international law.". This has been removed.
• " Greece's hesitance could be solved if the Mufti's were stripped of authority of jurisdiction. Turkey's precondition to open the Halki Seminary is considered unnecessary: it's purely a political decision." This has been removed

Biz (talk) 03:59, 3 November 2022 (UTC)